Ikariam: 23 postulates – an open letter to the Gameforge AG

  • badidol wrote:

    I am missing any sort of idea on what exactly to change in this postulate. However, the piracy system is huge and complex and can't just be changed on a whim. Changing that would require a lot of Game Design first, followed by quite substantial amounts of Dev and QA time. Definitely not something that would be happening any time soon.
    There was the idea to move the piracy research so it takes alot more time until a player or multi is able to take part in piracy.
    I don't think its the most uncomplicated way but probably the best idea right now.
  • Tendo wrote:

    There was the idea to move the piracy research so it takes alot more time until a player or multi is able to take part in piracy.
    I don't think its the most uncomplicated way but probably the best idea right now.
    I will forward that one again.
    Maybe they're more susceptible to it now.

    Am Anfang wurde das Universum erschaffen.
    Das machte viele Leute sehr wütend und wurde allenthalben als Schritt in die falsche Richtung angesehen.
  • Thanks for that comprehensive response. We really do appreciate your work. All the issues we have raised here have one specific common denominator - are not implemented, even though some of them are crucial and desirable. Moreover, recently there were no big updates.
    We know that we won’t achieve our goal in full measure. However, you said: “More Feedback? More Feedback!” Well, here we are then. To be honest, our main objective was to tout those issues... and we succeeded.
  • We've had a rousing discussion on this post over on the US server. I would highly recommend reading through Spidey Taak's rundown, it's a pleasure.

    board.us.ikariam.gameforge.com…?postID=811386#post811386

    Also, we'd love it if a Gameforge rep would pop by to say hello on our forum too ;)

    Anyone interested in seeing Ikariam's first true In-Game Business, in all it's trading glory, should swing by the US Ikariam NY Server.

    The MosCo Market Network, retail division of the Ny Trade Corporation, has been in operation for over 6 years, and currently offers up to 1.95 million in available resources across 13 MosCo branded locations, restocked daily.

    Come see why Ny Buys MosCo!!!

    because...

    We don't just Trade, We are (TRADE).
    Ny TradeCorp
  • Hey everyone,

    I'm from the U.S. Domain of servers, I've been there over 7 years now, starting in Omikron (which, thanks to the second merge no longer exists) but before that playing for over a year on the U.K. servers before migrating away from an, at the time, extremely toxic and hostile environment. My account is relatively young compared to some others now sharing my server thanks to the server merges that have already occcured, but I'm still ranked 3rd with an almost 52 million Total Score account. I have a lot of experience and know what i'm going on about both from a short term and a long term game play perspective, something that many of us feel the Initiative and his friends simply do not grasp fully as reflected in many of these postulates.

    I write a lot, deal with it and show me some common decency and read my post completely as it is going to be long and complex.

    On the U.S. Domain we have some extraordinary players across multiple aspects and playstyles of the game, many have accounts that date back to the games' inception, or, like me, date back to a period shortly after gold pillaging was eliminated (thankfully that no longer exists as it makes many of the game play approaches available untenable forcing people down a fight all the time approach which most don't have the skills to maintain or fight against massively outnumbering odds). Myself, I and my friends have the single largest crystal mine in the games history across every single server and every single server domain worldwide. And we haven't even donated to progress it past level 45 for 2 entire years. When it completed, it was pre-merges and it was a quarry at the time, at that time only a single other luxury mine, also a quarry, across all 604 odd servers of Ikariam that existed at the time across many, many country domains, existed, and thatw as on the 2nd or 3rd oldest server in the games' history which was several years older in length of time for the accounts playing then me and my friends accounts on our islands. It is a big deal when you have over 13 million donation score and have sucha large mine (luxury mines are more expensive because they employ more workers and get more income then an equivalent levgel sawmill, a level 45 crystal mine makes over 3400 resources an hour whereas a level 50 sawmill makes only around 2400, a full 1000 less per hour, resources - most people think that havinga larger sawmill is more notable but most people don't donate more then 1 or 2 million donation points of wood in their accounts entire existence).

    i digress slightly - I'm not the only one on the domain with high end mine development. On one of the older legacy servers (only hephas on sulfuir islands - hey the Initiative and co, do you even know that there is a difference between legacy and normal servers?), there is someone who also has an incredible donation score and mines and mills. the donation and building approach is stronglyr epresented on the U.S. Domain.

    But then you have the flipside. we have some insanely well educated in the subtleties of the underlying mechanics of Ikariam, Fighters. they are the sort of fighters that put the rest of us to shame and some even profess that the largest a pure fighting account ever needs to be is only 800,000 TS if it is properly set up and placed across a server and also has a support network of like minded friends and allies and they go out and back these statements up by wiping out players with tens of millions of total points and armies and fleets many times their own size purely because they learnt how the game plays and then play it on that level above most others when it comes to the combat aspects of Ikariam. Use of trading posts and black markets to accelerate military action is commonplace and all because the fighters understand the balancing mechanisms that are central to Ikariam as a whole.

    Balancing mechanisms which "the Initiative" and his friends above have completely ignored and failed to grasp. We aren't playing a point and click you win game here, we're playing Ikariam, a multi-faceted, real time strategy game. You will note, i did not label it a real time strategic war game, because ikariam is not just a game about combat, it is multi-faceted, multi-dimensional, and is designed such that people can play it from many different angles of approach and come away feeling accomplished and satisfied with their gaming experience. Heck, you can even play it and play it effectively to progress your overall account strength when real life interferes to reduce you to logging in once or twice a week for at best 2-5 minutes of time each log in.

    ikariam is a complex game with time elements that work amazingly well across all aspects of the game and it is one of the core reasons why so many of us are still playing this game after almost a decade of account existence. Even the players who start on every single server and play a short term 2-6 months account then abandon them for the next server (Why Gameforge can't just release a single new ever lasting server each year and then have a dedicated 4 to 6 month long server that resets at the end of the period to cater for those players and also allow new players to still have a relatively under-developed long term server choose to play on as well is beyond me, oit'd wipe out the need for merges and excessively empty servers) u. It took us a while to respond to this thread over on the U.S. servers because most players only view the bboards once in a blue moon, communication is mostly ingame or via other more mdoern mediums then a message board, but i found it and i broke down all the 23 ppostulates...but i didn't hold back saying it as i see them. Some points I agreed with to a point, most, not so much, but i responded indepth to all of them. Some of our most respected long term players also have chimed in, but the overwhelming sentiment from us in the U.S. is that the initiative and his group of friends need to go and play other browser games in this fantasy-esque genre of real time strategy games that exist outside of gameforge and not ruin ikariam for the rest of us who have sunk so much of our life time into the game because we understand the underlying balancing mechanisms and how it all affects each other combined with the safety net that 15 minute rounds of combat and long baseline travel times give us as players regardless of our preferred game play styles.

    One example here is the postulate about shifting piracy further up the research scale. Well that's all well and good except many people have maxed out their research futures and demolished their now useless academies and to work in a new research to keep using an aspect of the game they've had for a very long time now - piracy - they are going to be forced to demolish, in many cases, buildings that contribute hundreds of thousands of master builders points to their total score, just to make a level 1 academy to then research something they already knew, and then they are expected to rebuild as if nothing happened? How out of touch are you if you think this is even fair? Deliberately introducing an update that punishes your longest serving and most dedicated players because some upstart unskilled players that don't understand the cause and effect results of their suggestions want the game to be better suited to themselves and themselves alone? how is this even being considered as an appropriate thing to introduce when these don't have the patience to play the game and think long term like many of us do.

    EDIT: POST WAS TOO LONG, WENT TO SPLIT IT AND I CAN'T POST THE SECOND RESPONSE FOR ANOTHER HOUR. SCREW YOU 10,000 CHARACTER LIMIT AND STUPID HOUR LONG 2ND POST SET UP. THERE IS A SECOND PART HERE STILL.
  • Long response, part 2 (The copy paste function for the board is messed up, so you get weird paragraphs for this part):

    ikariam can be played short term, you can play with a weekly or monthly progression mindset. Then there are the rest of us who play thinking years of time ahead at a time. For example, My next crystal mine will cost me 298 million wood to upgrade. I'm looking at half a years total income (assuming it's all ambrosia trade converted to wood to donate off) to upgrade a single mine. It's also more wood to upgrade that single mine then more then 98% of all players will ever donate in their entire ikariam lives. there are a great deal of us that see the game for what it is - complex, yet manageable on our time because of the mechanisms built into the game. A second example - high end buildings cost proportionally more to build and proportionally take far longer to upgrade not because it makes nos ense but because your totals core is still going to advance at the same rate as if you did lots of little upgrades that cost the same amount of resources. total Score can be used as a weapon in this game and as a defense to discourage people attacking you. The longer build times are inbuilt into the system to ensure that people who have more resources don't advance too quickly,

    and more, those resources that need to be stockpiled are vulnerable to
    attack and pillage for longer because they cost proportionally more for
    the higher end upgrades. Again, it's a point brought up in one of the
    postulates above that supposedly needs to be changed but only
    demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of core game mechanics and
    inbuilt game balance designed into ikariam, by the Initiative and his
    friends and their 23 Postulates. If you can't be objective from all
    aspects at all levels of development of the game and see how the game
    isn't just about a handful of in your face aspects like troops,
    buildingsizes and income, but that the differings coreboards and how
    they progress in relaton to ana ccount can also be used both offensively
    and defensively, then you have no business making postules to
    radicalkly change the game itself. If ikartiam is so bad for you, why do
    you even play it?


    Go and read ALL of our feedback and analysis

    on the U.S. boards, yes, i write a lot, and no, I don't sugar coat
    anything, but others are more restrained if equally objective and all of
    you viewing this topic need to read that thread then feel free to
    respond to us there, we'd love some rationale responses to justify some
    of the absurdity here.


    The US Domain Responds to The 23 Postulates Topic


    Have a grand day,

    Spideytaak.




    P.S. On the shift research cost of piracy up and my counter with punishing players who have maxed out their research already - I did like 60 futures all at once, jumping over 8 million research points and total score because I was bored and decided to power save research points, it was epic, a top ten player accused me of hacking and decided to attack me whilst conveniently ignoring the fact my total score hadn't moved anywhere for 6+ months and that whilst my resource score steadily increased my donation score also didn't move so resources were beings pent {experiments!} but no points movement till that explosive jump of awesome.

    P.P.S. We have actual, long term, as in ongoing for over a year of real world time now, wars happening. There are some dispicable players on the US servers that prey on the new players purely to use them as a shield and to take advantage of their weakness in relatively small sized accounts, pulled them all into a mega alliance and then thrust untenable conditions on them to stay in the alliance or be booted and farmed to ghostng, and then the flip side is we have hardcore fighters that got so sick of that that their entire purpose got reshaped to wipe those players and all their support accounts from existence. They may have wiped some of the unfortunate newbies out along the way but new players aren't beings ucked in any more to alliances over 100 accounts strong that are now down to a few dozen. Now, these prey on other players exist on most server domains and usually have delusions of grandeur that they are the best alliance because they are ranked number one purely because they have the mosta ccounts to flesh out their points, but I've not seen fighters who, lets be frank, would rather have servers burn to the ground in non-stop pillaging and fighting, turn around and stand up for the new players coming in to extend the player base and the games' survivability in this modern era where browser based games are almost antiquated by the steady march of computing technology. We all play these games but getting people to pick them up and retaining the player base is increasinglyc hallenging, but we have fighters who stand up for those players on our servers.


    P.P.P.S. If THE HULK was here in my place, instead of a small novel you'd ghet a response IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE HE IS THE HULK AND HE IS LOUD AND PROUD. Like i said above, the U.S. domain is populated by a diverse and highly skilled set of ikariam players that approach the game and how it brings enjoyment to them and others, in vastly different ways, yet it all works out in the end. because Ikariam is great how it is.
  • Spideytaak wrote:

    I write a lot, deal with it and show me some common decency and read my post completely as it is going to be long and complex.
    Well I readed evrything and I have to say... your post is not complex, it's simply boring and has nothing to do with the topic^^
    90% of your Post is about how good you think about yourself and your account, your mine, your points, how long you play and so on, I don't care.

    There was like only one time you were writing about the topic:

    Spideytaak wrote:

    Well that's all well and good except many people have maxed out their research futures and demolished their now useless academies and to work in a new research to keep using an aspect of the game they've had for a very long time now - piracy - they are going to be forced to demolish, in many cases, buildings that contribute hundreds of thousands of master builders points to their total score, just to make a level 1 academy to then research something they already knew, and then they are expected to rebuild as if nothing happened?
    There are more than enough cheap buildings like the cost-reduction buidings, evryone easily can destroy one of them and rebuild it after he's done with the research.
    Especially Accounts with already all the researches should easily make this happen cause they have a lot of ressources.
    A small prize to pay for making the abuse of small accounts in piracy stop.

    As already said the rest of your post is more or less off-topic :schämen:
    Next time you should try to make your Posts better organized, split the topics and use headings so evryone knows what you're talking about.
  • I gave you context about our server domain and the community there, let you, and everyone here - you have a community manager that ACTUALLY posts and seems to be able to talk to Gameforge, we don't have that - understand where we are coming from.

    I also linked you to the thread where we comprehensively break down the topic over on the US Boards, but because you missed that in your "I read everything" which you obviously didn't so here t is again for you:

    the US Domain Responds to the 23 Postulates Topic

    Now you can't miss it.

    EDIT BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T READ MY RESPONSES PROPERLY, I DID ADDRESS MULTIPLE POINTS FROM THE POSTULATES EVEN THOUGH ON THE us bOARDS WHERE A TRHEAD WAS STARTED BY THE INITIATIVE IT'S ALL BROKEN DOWN POINT BY POINT, LETS QUOTE THE POSTULATES AND ME FROM THIS THREAD TENDO:



    Postulate 11 /A2:B2/

    In game there has to be a maximal building upgrading time established at some rational level or at least the way of determining it be modified not to allow some buildings to be excessively time-consuming at their highest levels. Moreover, there should be some functionalities allowing players to shorten buildings’ upgrading duration; however, accessing that functionality shouldn’t be limited to the premium currency usage.


    Spideytaak from the post directlya bove yours Tendo:

    A second example - high end buildings cost proportionally more to build and proportionally take far longer to upgrade not because it makes nos ense but because your totals core is still going to advance at the
    same rate as if you did lots of little upgrades that cost the same amount of resources. total Score can be used as a weapon in this game and as a defense to discourage people attacking you. The longer build
    times are inbuilt into the system to ensure that people who have more resources don't advance too quickly, and more, those resources that need to be stockpiled are vulnerable to attack and pillage for longer because they cost proportionally more for the higher end upgrades.


    I'll expand on this here even though it's been done elsewhere:

    the cost to halve the build time of a high end building is excessive. Practically no normal person uses the feature because you are looking at half or more of a non-discounted town teleport to halve the build time of a high end building, and to finish it instantly costs equal to or more then what a non-discounted town teleport costs.

    Again, the initiative demonstrates a lack of objective understanding of the core mechanics of Ikariam and how everything relates to everything else.

    But hey, I'm boring, me mentioning such things as the socio-political environment ona localised and global server coverage and how you, as a person can, assuming you've done the politics properly, manipulate your enemies into attacking each other instead of attacking you when your extensive web of player informants get back to you with news of planned attaxcks against you. This sub-sect of the game does actually exist, but I doubt you or the Initiative and his friends have ever played ikariam with this in mind.

    I'LL END THE EDIT QUOTING ANOTHER VERY PERTINENT THING I SAID ABOVE THAT DIRECTLY RELATES TO THIS TOPIC

    Again, it's a point brought up in one of the postulates above that supposedly needs to be changed but only demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of core game mechanics and inbuilt game balance designed into ikariam, by the Initiative and his friends and their 23 Postulates. If you can't be objective from all aspects at all levels of development of the game and see how the game isn't just about a handful of in your face aspects like troops, building sizes and income, but that the differing scoreboards and how they progress in relatIon to an account can also be used both offensively and defensively, then you have no business making postules to radically change the game itself. If ikartiam is so bad for you, why do you even play it?


    Feel free to tell us that it's all boring and that you read everything again mate.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Spideytaak ().

  • Well I already had to read your "Story of your live" so I am of course not interested in reading more :engel:
    Because your post here was already chaotic enough for me (what I tried to explain you) and way too much stuff I don't care about.

    So yes I read evrything, both of your Posts but because they were already not interesting and had a bad structure, I won't read the responds on the end of the link.
  • And this is why your opinions on this topic whose sole aim is to drastically change the way Ikariam as a game plays, should not be considered - because other server domains have now responded, and responded in detail, but you're gonna go have a whinge in the corner because dear gods it was too painful to get shut down by logical counter points and arguments that make sense.

    What a tosser you are Tendo.
  • Spideytaak wrote:

    arguments
    Well there were no arguments in your post.
    As mentioned you should learn to keep it compact and organized especially if you write to other Communitys cause if we read your english posts, we don't want to hear about you and your account.
    We want to hear logical points and arguments, but if you can't make them easy to read and understandable why should anyone read your posts anymore.
  • So the Initiative, i.e. the thread opener, i.e. not you Tendo, directed us all to come here and then redirect people back to our thread to make it a global community discussion.

    So we've done that.

    But you Tendo, being one of the apparently few fluent English speaking people here, decide that oh no, the formatting is too confusing for your fragile little brain despite you saying you read everything and comprehended it but actually didn't and got countered by by me quoting my initial response that you said you understood but obviously didn't, back at you, are now chuckinga cry baby hissy fit in the corner here.

    Lets be adults here and be blunt and honest about it all - you tendo, are acting like an A grade ass hole and you should go and Get bent you hypocritical fuck wit.

    I don't even care if I get banned now, I hopped on to redirect interest back to other views from other players of the game that have other views yet which are objective and both agree and disagree with the postulates and do it in a concise and polite manner. I did what the thread opener asked us all to do, and on top of that I went and contacted the one person in this trhead with any sort of authority to act on it - badidol.

    We don't give a crap about your opinions tendo, you can't get past your own shitty ego when people call you out. Grow the fuck up mate.

    Edit: You guys need some fucken censorship built in here, I honestly expected to be forced to redo that all polite or having to bypass the word filters toc all tendo out, but heck no, which is strange on a board where English is also used to communicate in some threads.
  • Spideytaak wrote:

    got countered by by me quoting my initial response
    And that's why I called your Post chaotic, yes you where right you have mentioned a topic which I overread cause I didn't remember it to be a part in the postulates.
    That's why I said your Post has no structure, there was no evil meaning behind it, I agree with you when you say that many of those Postulates are not needed, maybe cause of a lack of game understanding by the one who wrote the postulates.

    I was simply feeling sad, reading 2 Posts about you and thing's I don't care much about instead of new arguments or anything interesting, but I don't know why you feel so offended now.
    It would be way more simple to say from the beginning something like:

    You find my opinion about the Postulates here: Link
    Now let me introduce myself and the community im representing.

    I would simply prefer to read something like this, so I know where I can find the stuff I really am interested about.
    Would be much easier and better, especially for the readers who are a little bit "afraid" after seeing 2 Posts written and don't want to read so much ;)
  • Tendo wrote:


    I was simply feeling sad, reading 2 Posts about you and thing's I don't care much about instead of new arguments or anything interesting, but I don't know why you feel so offended now.
    It would be way more simple to say from the beginning something like:

    You find my opinion about the Postulates here: Link
    Now let me introduce myself and the community im representing.

    I would simply prefer to read something like this, so I know where I can find the stuff I really am interested about.
    Would be much easier and better, especially for the readers who are a little bit "afraid" after seeing 2 Posts written and don't want to read so much ;)
    You realise that the post before my first one written by MosXero was made 5 days ago and did exactly this. And there was zero attention addressed to it (He really needs a line between his posts and his extensive signature). But look, here I am am bam, responses.
  • I agree with Tendo. Your post has too much off-topic and is too long for the amount of information in it.

    This part, for example:

    Spideytaak wrote:

    On the U.S. Domain we have some extraordinary players across multiple aspects and playstyles of the game, many have accounts that date back to the games' inception, or, like me, date back to a period shortly after gold pillaging was eliminated (thankfully that no longer exists as it makes many of the game play approaches available untenable forcing people down a fight all the time approach which most don't have the skills to maintain or fight against massively outnumbering odds). Myself, I and my friends have the single largest crystal mine in the games history across every single server and every single server domain worldwide. And we haven't even donated to progress it past level 45 for 2 entire years. When it completed, it was pre-merges and it was a quarry at the time, at that time only a single other luxury mine, also a quarry, across all 604 odd servers of Ikariam that existed at the time across many, many country domains, existed, and thatw as on the 2nd or 3rd oldest server in the games' history which was several years older in length of time for the accounts playing then me and my friends accounts on our islands. It is a big deal when you have over 13 million donation score and have sucha large mine (luxury mines are more expensive because they employ more workers and get more income then an equivalent levgel sawmill, a level 45 crystal mine makes over 3400 resources an hour whereas a level 50 sawmill makes only around 2400, a full 1000 less per hour, resources - most people think that havinga larger sawmill is more notable but most people don't donate more then 1 or 2 million donation points of wood in their accounts entire existence).
    You could have reduced it to "I am a great guy because I have the largest crystal mine in the world." Or you could have eliminated it completely, because it is not relevant for the discussion. Your whole essay above seems to base on "I tell everyone what I have achieved in this game." And then you hope that we are impressed and believe you without doubt. You wouldn't need that if you are able to convince with your arguments.


    Tendo wrote:

    There are more than enough cheap buildings like the cost-reduction buidings, evryone easily can destroy one of them and rebuild it after he's done with the research.
    Especially Accounts with already all the researches should easily make this happen cause they have a lot of ressources.
    A small prize to pay for making the abuse of small accounts in piracy stop.
    You still didn't answer to this part of Tendo's post. Instead you insulted him. Looks like you ran out of arguments...


    Spideytaak wrote:

    ikariam can be played short term, you can play with a weekly or monthly progression mindset. Then there are the rest of us who play thinking years of time ahead at a time. For example, My next crystal mine will cost me 298 million wood to upgrade. I'm looking at half a years total income (assuming it's all ambrosia trade converted to wood to donate off) to upgrade a single mine. It's also more wood to upgrade that single mine then more then 98% of all players will ever donate in their entire ikariam lives. there are a great deal of us that see the game for what it is - complex, yet manageable on our time because of the mechanisms built into the game.
    You think you are great because you are thinking years ahead. But did you also calculated when your upgrade will be profitable? Let's assume that an upgrade of your mine will increase the maximum of workers by 50. So it will be an increase of 50*1.64*1.2*1.1=108 ressources per hour when you have the corresponding building at 32 and use the premium features. With 17 cities on your island, the upgrade will need 298,000,000 / (108*17) = 162,309 hours = 18,5 years to pay off. Do you really think Ikariam will still exist in 18 years?
    Das Meer ist alles. Es bedeckt sieben Zehntel der Erde. Sein Atem ist rein und gesund. Es ist eine immense Wüste, wo ein Mann nie alleine ist, in dem er fühlen kann, wie das Leben aller in ihm bebt. Das Meer ist nur ein Behälter für alle die ungeheuren, übernatürlichen Dinge, die darin existieren; es ist nicht nur Bewegung und Liebe; es ist die lebende Unendlichkeit.
  • .EDIT COMPLETED

    Nemo:

    I agree with Tendo. Your post has too much off-topic and is too long for the amount of information in it.
    This part, for example:

    Spideytaak:

    On the U.S. Domain we have some extraordinary players across multiple aspects and playstyles of the game, many have accounts that date back to the games' inception, or, like me, date back to a period shortly after gold pillaging was eliminated (thankfully that no longer exists as it makes many of the game play approaches available untenable forcing people down a fight all the time approach which most don't have the skills to maintain or fight against massively outnumbering odds). Myself, I and my friends have the single largest crystal mine in the games history across every single server and every single server domain worldwide. And we haven't even donated to progress it past level 45 for 2 entire years. When it completed, it was pre-merges and it was a quarry at the time, at that time only a single other luxury mine, also a quarry, across all 604 odd servers of Ikariam that existed at the time across many, many country domains, existed, and thatw as on the 2nd or 3rd oldest server in the games' history which was several years older in length of time for the accounts playing then me and my friends accounts on our islands. It is a big deal when you have over 13 million donation score and have sucha large mine (luxury mines are more expensive because they employ more workers and get more income then an equivalent levgel sawmill, a level 45 crystal mine makes over 3400 resources an hour whereas a level 50 sawmill makes only around 2400, a full 1000 less per hour, resources - most people think that havinga larger sawmill is more notable but most people don't donate more then 1 or 2 million donation points of wood in their accounts entire existence).
    You could have reduced it to "I am a great guy because I have the largest crystal mine in the world." Or you could have eliminated it completely, because it is not relevant for the discussion. Your whole essay above seems to base on "I tell everyone what I have achieved in this game." And then you hope that we are impressed and believe you without doubt. You wouldn't need that if you are able to convince with your arguments.

    You could have reduced it to "I am a great guy because I have the largest crystal mine in the world." Or you could have eliminated it completely, because it is not relevant for the discussion. Your whole essay above seems to base on "I tell everyone what I have achieved in this game." And then you hope that we are impressed and believe you without doubt. You wouldn't need that if you are able to convince with your arguments.


    See, this again says that you and the people on this thread here DID NOT READ THE POSTULATES AT ALL:

    Lets quote one for you that IS directly relevant here:

    Postulate 10 /A3:B2/

    Players who donates the most in favour of upgrading Saw mills and facilities that produces luxury goods should obtain an appropriate production bonus in the virtue of being the biggest investor.

    I'm not re-writing stuff here when it's indepth on our thread on the U.S. that has a link already. But more then most people this postulate would benefit me...but I'm against it. If you really want to know why, follow the link, and ACTUALLY READ THINGS. Including the postulates and don't just come back with 'all of this is irrelevant'.


    Tendo:
    There are more than enough cheap buildings like the cost-reduction buildings, everyone easily can destroy one of them and rebuild it after he's done with the research.
    Especially Accounts with already all the researches should easily make this happen cause they have a lot of resources.
    A small prize to pay for making the abuse of small accounts in piracy stop.

    Nemo:

    You still didn't answer to this part of Tendo's post. Instead you insulted him. Looks like you ran out of arguments...



    Fair point, to that I put this - No, some people are past that point and don't have need of reducers anymore so they don't have them. These people, also maxed out on research levels do not have a simple and cheap building to demolish. My original point stands. You can't make a change that will punish your longest playing players. Piracy exists, sure, but piracy has been balanced finally after so long to not be a huge imbalanced reward system. On a starting server, done well it will give you an edge but the rewards aren't overwhelming or imbalnaced for the time investment anymore nor in relation to players who fight and pillag or players who focus on mining and mills or both and are, or rather were, left behind by people pirating. For the longest time, a first place in piracy was still more then 3 weeks of income baseline for myself - we've establish I have a huge income and one as a result of team work to set up witha combined donation pool of over 2 billion, over years of gameplay, but where once piracy would allow people to sky rocket in advancement, now, not so much. Piracy has a simple counter - get some friends, and pillage the crap out of the players that evaluate at the top end of it all the time, if you know they ar going to evaluate then you set up timed attacks to land before the evaluation to clear resources or where forces are lacking to hit and timed to clear just seconds after evaluation occurs so as you all pillage it instantly. You find enough people and you can clear out a number 1 ranked pirater in a matter of seconds if you do it right.

    Here's a happy middle ground - if you introduce such a sweeping gameplay change of piracy now costs more research points, then you make it so as as anyone with piracy already researched are unaffected by the change. This postulate thread is about changing the game for the better in the future, so don't screw over existing players with the changes regardless of how small a saample size of the gaming population it is, if youw ant to improve the game then you need to do it with as few invasive changes as possible, because Ikariam is a browser based tecxt oan a screen witha time element game and lets all be brutally honest here, mobile gaming is far more advanced these days then browser gaming. You need to balance changes against the whole player base because you don't want people leaving because they are gettings crewed by a system that has been balanced based on rewards gained for 3 weeks of piracy gameplay.

    EDIT THE 10,000 CHARACTER LIMIT ON POSTS SUCKS SO MUCH, I HAVE RESPONDED TO YOUR QUESTION OF PROFITABILITY VS INVESTMENT NEMO, I JUST HAVE TO WAIT TILL SOMEONE ELSE POSTS TO THEN BE ABLE TO POST OR WAIT AN HOUR BEFORE CAN DOUBLE POST.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Spideytaak ().

  • Are we talking about this account? Do you have more experience in the game or is your knowledge limited to donations and research?
    There are also players who like to fight. With corresponding miracles. How do you regulate this? Vacation-mode? : D

    The post was edited 4 times, last by Bronn ().

  • NB: The copy paste system here is wonky, so you get weird short paragrapghs instead.

    Nemo:


    Spideytaak:


    ikariam can be played short term, you can play with a weekly or monthly progression mindset. Then there are the rest of us who play thinking years of time ahead at a time. For example, My next crystal mine will cost me 298 million wood to upgrade. I'm looking at half a years total income (assuming it's all ambrosia trade converted to wood to donate off) to upgrade a single mine. It's also more wood to upgrade that single mine then more then 98% of all players will ever donate in their entire ikariam lives. there are a great deal of us that see the game for what it is - complex, yet manageable on our time because of the mechanisms built into the game.

    You think you are
    great because you are thinking years ahead. But did you also calculated
    when your upgrade will be profitable? Let's assume that an upgrade of
    your mine will increase the maximum of workers by 50. So it will be an
    increase of 50*1.64*1.2*1.1=108 resources per hour when you have the
    corresponding building at 32 and use the premium features. With 17
    cities on your island, the upgrade will need 298,000,000 / (108*17) =
    162,309 hours = 18,5 years to pay off. Do you really think Ikariam will
    still exist in 18 years?


    Two things here, because this is the argument so many people throw at me and they simply miss the whole point:


    1)
    It's not about how long the mine or mill will take to become profitable
    in the traditional investment vs net profit gain mindset. The profit
    comes immediately with the speed of income you generate.


    This is
    two fold - one, if you and I had equal armies and equal fleets and
    managed to wipe each other out utterly, then my higher mills and mines
    mean that I am able to produce an army and fleet before you can, I don't
    even need a large one, just enough to lock you down and then pillage
    you until you ghost. I've done this innumerable times in my own
    gameplay, because people never appreciate that at the end of the day,
    when you are reset to nothing, it doesn't matter if your mines and mills
    aren't going to start paying themselves off for another 3 or 4 decades
    real world time, what only matters is that you now have an army and
    fleet before your enemies and you now have all the power to start
    pillaging them much sooner and ensure that the maximum sized forces they
    can manage are forces made off of whatever the safe limits to their
    colonies are as everything else you are now pillaging to further
    increase your strength.


    High mines and mills represent an increase in speed of production.


    In
    terms of military if my production is twice yours, then my military is
    going to develop faster then you - I can have a full battleloine army
    and fleet before you and then lock you down, picking off your forces
    piecemeal or locking them down to a point where youc an't do anything
    till I let you do something.


    This also scales to alliances with
    the same mentality and extremely high developed mines and mills. When
    you are ina void of income outside of your own mines and mills, then
    you are at your most vulnerable. If you are able to produce at an
    extraordinaryily fast pace then you aren't, but friends also producing
    at such rate means you can take on many times your number in foes and
    still come out on top because of the speed of production you have that
    they don't. It's very simple maths really.


    Second, more
    production means faster building and development time. It doesn't always
    look that way on paper, but when done with focus, you do start to push
    ahead of other players who also started at the same time as you but have
    lesser mines and mills. they may gain in the short term but longterm
    you start pushing ahead.


    There is a point where it becomes a
    choice - do we keep pushing even though realistically it's becoming more
    valuable to invest in the account development, but everyone crosses
    that path at some point and it is their choice which direction they go.
    Myself, I haven't donated in two years. The next highest person from my
    original server still playing is one of the most aggressive fighter
    pillagers, and he is 40% less developed then me, his mines and mills are
    nothing special in the Ikariam of today and he does develop his
    account, but there's a huge difference when someone is making a net
    income of a million resources a day and someone else is making over 1.8
    million a day.



    2) We set out on the U.S. Domain as a group
    of 4 or so players with one major goal in mind, to get the highest
    luxury mine in the games history, and we did. It felt and still feels
    really good. What have you done that no one else has done ever in this
    game?


    You don't have to be interested in playing Ikariam or any
    game like that but I like doing things people haven't done before, it
    pushes the envelope a bit and can be quite rewarding.
  • Truth be told....I don't like your tone.
    Also, this is not the US forum but the German one. I suggest turning to your own forum for US matters. Thanks.

    I've kept this thread open for long enough now. Before more entitled US Americans feel the need to barge in and write pages long off topic posts I am closing this thread for good now.

    :ncl:

    Am Anfang wurde das Universum erschaffen.
    Das machte viele Leute sehr wütend und wurde allenthalben als Schritt in die falsche Richtung angesehen.